Winter Is Coming Interview

Brandon Sanderson

Wind and Truth, when I was working on my original outlines, was the one that I knew would probably be the most divisive. And looking at the responses, [they] have been divisive in the ways that I expected and wanted, and so we're good.

It's interesting, each book of The Stormlight Archive I feel needs to reinvent itself. They are so long. I write them as if I were plotting a trilogy, each volume a trilogy, and I feel they would get stale really quickly if they didn't reinvent themselves periodically, with each volume. And so there's things I did in Wind and Truth very specifically to make people uncomfortable. And maybe that's not a wise choice, but it definitely was the artistic choice. I can talk you through one of these.

Kaladin is kind of our throughline through the first five books, in a lot of ways. Book one is, Kaladin rises up and saves the day. Book two...Kaladin has to question his fundamental beliefs, and then book three is Kaladin breaks, right? That's kind of our trilogy. And you have this idea where [in] books one and two, Kaladin steps up at the end; in book three, he fails to do so. Book four is breaking Kaladin further to that breaking point, and book five is Kaladin steps back. You've had Kaladin as your main emotional throughline through the series so far, and he's not in book five, which is instantly going to make people feel like something's off, something's weird about this book. Kaladin's taking a backseat suddenly, and actually Adolin is doing the kind of plot structure that is typically a Kaladin plot structure, in book five.

There's a lot more that are kind of like that, that I hope, you know, readers who don't even see structure are going to be like, "Something's weird about this book." Because I want the book to be the one when people get done, that they're just not quite sure what's going on and where the series is going anymore, because I knew the series needed that book 5 sort of change of the status quo if I was going to do 10 books. And so I've been watching, and I've been seeing that.

Brandon Sanderson

Now, there is one piece of feedback I've gotten that has surprised me, and it's very rare that I'm surprised. And that's the prose in book 5 feeling a little more modern. 

It took me by surprise. The betas didn't spot it...that's the one that I've been looking at and saying, "Alright, do I need to re-evaluate?" I like listening to the fandom and things like this, and I do think I've been inching more and more modern, because in my head, the Cosmere is going more and more modern. But that discounts kind of one of the reasons people come to fantasy, and that is as a contrast to a lot of contemporary fiction.

People will say, "It feels more YA," which is very interesting because what actually is happening, I think, is that there's this kind of contemporary voice to prose that you'll find in YA, romance, thrillers, mystery...but a lot of the readers are going to experience it mostly through YA, coming out of YA and things like that. And it's interesting to me that that's happening.

I also think people are reacting against some of the humor styles that were very popular in when I was growing up. We call it "Whedon-esque" or, you know, things like this.

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And so there's something to watch for in that as well, because Wind and Truth has some of its humor scenes up front, where normally they're in the middle, because I kind of do the relaxing, getting ready for the big explosion [at the beginning]. So part one of Wind and Truth is the, "Alright, let's spend some peaceful time with the characters before things go crazy." Normally that's in the middle of a book.

Anyway, I've been looking at those things, with the prose and whatnot, and if something's off, it's only off by five or 10%. But you know, I do listen. I do. And as kind of a student of how prose and storytelling works, it's interesting to try and dig back to, "Alright, what's going on here? Can I interpret what people are saying?"

Brandon Sanderson

When I turned in Wind and Truth to Peter [Ahlstrom, and my] editorial department in June before it came out, I said, "Alright, this is the book that has the biggest danger of breaking my career. Beware, be warned, this is the one. Doing this and then making them wait eight years...this is the thing that could end it all." I think it's the right artistic choice. I think when the series is done, people will be like, "Wow, I'm so glad we had book 5." But I also think it's going to be a book that's going to make some people uncomfortable.

Brandon Sanderson

I love the therapist joke, but that might be the one that's a step too far. I knew when I was writing it, this could be a step too far for people. Sometimes you just have to do the things that make you smile.

Winter Is Coming

Do you still expect to be able to write epic fantasy in the Cosmere, or are we fully in the sci-fi era?

Brandon Sanderson

What an excellent question. There's a whole lot that I've thought about on this for many years. I don't want to leave behind epic fantasy completely, though I do think that as I move forward, you're going to see two types of epic fantasy in the Cosmere. One...takes place outside the current timeline. When I jump back and I do Hoid's backstory, we're back to epic fantasy, though it'll be Bronze Age. And [the other is] things like, not necessarily the voice of, but things like Tress of the Emerald Sea, where you see touches of the rest of the universe has hit the science fiction era, and there are science fiction things here, but you know, this planet is not there yet and what not. I think you'll see mostly those two types of things.

You'll see a lot more Dune style where it is. Dune is such a strange beast and I love it for it, right? A Fire Upon the Deep has a bit of this same feel where it's like, is this fantasy or is this science fiction? Well, Dune is science fiction, but man, it feels like an epic fantasy. Dune is what proved to me that you can put guns in something and still have the feel of that epic fantasy that I love. Because Dune feels more like Game of Thrones and Wheel of Time then some other fantasy books that are strictly fantasy do, because of some of the tone. So you'll see me doing some things like that as well.

I still don't think I'm equipped to write true hard science fiction. I respect it greatly. But as I've always said, kind of the difference between what I do and what hard science fiction does, is hard science fiction takes what we have and extrapolates realistically to a future, and I take a future and then justify it with the mechanics in-world. And that's a very different thing.

The biggest challenge I will have is I don't want my books to read like technical manuals. There are some people who love that. I let myself do some of that with Navani in [Rhythm of War], and I love it. But I have to be careful that every book doesn't read like a hard science fiction where you have to have a PhD in the Cosmere to understand what's going on.

That's actually a challenge for the Ghostbloods. I want people who read the original Mistborn trilogy, who maybe weren't into Wax & Wayne, to be able to jump to this. And I want it to not read like a technical manual. But at the same time, you can read Tom Clancy and not have to understand the technology in specific that he's referencing, that are causing some of the problems in the Cold War thrillers and things. And so there's a line to walk there, right? How much do I explain? How much do I leave to the hardcore Cosmere fans? How much do I put in an appendix for them? You know, Star Trek gets away with a ton of technobabble, but you don't have to understand any of it. Where is that balance? So that's the biggest challenge for this book other than, you know, writing a fantastic book.

Winter Is Coming

You mentioned Wax & Wayne. That was the unplanned era of Mistborn. Often when fans on forums talk about this stuff, they refer to the Ghostbloods era as the "80s sci-fi tech thriller" era of Mistborn. Has that tone or anything about it changed at all because of Wax & Wayne? Or just in general, because now as you said, it's been 20 years, you've written more than 20 books in the Cosmere.

Brandon Sanderson

A decent amount has changed, like you evolve over time. The core characters and the goals that I'm having have stayed the same. But you know...I have an art department now. I put them for six months doing concept art on Mistborn modern era, and they just kind of were churning [things] out. I felt like George Lucas saying, "Okay, I'm gonna do this one, go further on this. Give me more on this. This is the wrong direction, give me something else for this.'' And I have all this big folder of concept art they did for me. And they're all off on the other things now, but I have this. That's real different, right?

And Ben McSweeney, who's just awesome. He did the concept art for Way of Kings back when I did my original pitch, and now he's on staff. He just loves Mistborn. I found him through Mistborn fan art, that's how I hired him in like 2008 or 2009, whenever it was. And he came up with all these ideas that are really cool for melding some science and fantasy and, you know...how does this feel different from other urban fantasies? We don't just want to do our world, but there's Mistborn. We want it to feel like Scadrial. So that's been a lot of fun. That's changed how I play and interact with that.

Doing Wax & Wayne...I always told people that, one of the key plot points was a Mistborn serial killer. I kind of did that already, and I borrowed that whole plot sequence and put it in Shadows of Self. And so I'm not going in that direction, I'm taking the other kind of parts of it and things. So there's things that slipped into the Wax & Wayne books and felt like a good match.

I also moved the timeframe up about 20 years in-world, so that the Wax & Wayne books aren't quite as distant a memory. Like people that you met during those could theoretically still be alive, the younger ones, right? We're doing like a 50-year jump instead of a 70-year jump, and that 20 years is relevant for some of these things. And I've already set up the Cold War, so I don't have to set that up. It's already in existence, so...you know, stuff like that.

Winter Is Coming

So this [Ghostbloods] is a much more tightly tied series to Wax & Wayne than Wax & Wayne was to the original trilogy, in a way?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, in a way...like I do intend for people to be able to just pick it up, even if they haven't read the original trilogy, or if they haven't read Wax & Wayne. But you know, Wax & Wayne will be lots of good backstory.

Brandon Sanderson

Like, I didn't know until a later [Stormlight] book that I was going to age up Gav. And so in the first book, the foreshadowing...it's just the suckling babe. I get later on and I'm like, "Oh, this kid's gonna have to be older than that. He'll have to be at least six." That's not a suckling babe. And then I'm like, "No, he needs to be even older than that, I'm gonna have to time dilate him." The metaphor still works, but the language that I wrote in 2009, that I have to pick up in 2024 when I'm polishing [Wind and Truth] for release...there are things you just have to accept that it's going to have to be a little more metaphoric, when if you can write them all through, you can just make sure the language is exactly as you want it and things like that.

Brandon Sanderson

And so that's why I was able to take these six months — well, they ended in January — but I finished Wind and Truth and I took six months and I said, "I can work on whatever I want during this time." And a big chunk of that became the novella for Tailored Realities, 50,000 words, so it's...you know, it's a novella for me. It's technically a novel, but it's a very short novel. And part of that became going back to White Sand and fiddling on that, part of it became a screenplay for The Emperor's Soul that I'm very proud of.

I need more screenplay practice. Like, I envy [George R.R. Martin] so much, him having worked in television for so many years, and then coming to it and suddenly being able to have a great influence on the first seasons of Game of Thrones because he had been, you know, working in television. I envy him that experience. And so this is like my fifth or so screenplay. So I'm getting to where I feel comfortable writing them and offering feedback on them, but I still need more experience. So I decided, "Hey, I'm gonna write a screenplay on Emperor's Soul," and stuff like that.

I've now blown off that steam, and I was itching to get back to something like...you know, my true love is this deep continuity across many worlds, that's why I keep coming back to it. But I just need a break from it now and then.

Brandon Sanderson

One thing [about "Moment Zero"], it is a cop story. And writing about police officers in today's environment is something where you gotta be like...you know, I love the classic cop story, I love me John McClain, things like this...but we do interface differently with police officers in 2025 than we did in the 90s when Die Hard was written. I actually kind of put some talking about social issues in it in the first draft, and my beta readers exclusively are like, "There's not place for this Brandon, even touching on it is a bad idea. You can't do a good job with it, this is an explosive action story." And I actually pulled back on a lot of that.

You know, like I have a pair of heroic police officers, I think there are heroic police officers out there. Does not mean that we shouldn't be having difficult conversations about how policing is handled in the United States. And so I'm curious...how's the response to just a classic cop story in today's environment?

Well, like I said, I pulled back on talking about this. Both from the non-cops and the cops I had read it, just [were] like, "This isn't the place for it." I do think I talked about that enough in Wax & Wayne, where you kind of had Wax versus Marasi where she's like, "Hey, you know, we need to police differently than you policed when you were out in the Roughs." So I did dig into it. But you know, it is an interesting thing to think about when you approach writing a cop drama these days.

HA2HA2

Huh. Brandon mentions "sidelining Kal" as his controversial decision, but that didn't seem to be where most of the controversy comes - I thought most people like Kal's plotline?

I thought the most controversial was like "modern language", "jasnah debate", maybe "gay couple" (not controversial on Reddit but maybe elasewhere), "child champ".

Brandon Sanderson

So, the interview where I talked about this didn't feel the place to dig into it deeply, but perhaps I can do a little bit more here. As a foreword, though, this might get into artsy-english-major-bs. It's how I feel about the piece, and part of what I was trying to do, but whether it has practical application to actual readers...your mileage may vary.

The goal here was to give a sense of disquietude to WaT by breaking the formula in uncomfortable ways--leading to a sense of uncertainty while reading the book, a sense that something was off, that the average reader (which may not include the people of this subreddit) wouldn't pick up on directly except for a sense of something being "out of tune" as they read.

Kaladin is part of this. For the first time, Kaladin won't be there for the main climax of the book. Not only that, but he's learning to play the flute while Adolin is living through the worst hell of his life. But there's a great deal more. Shallan seems to be backsliding in a way that doesn't make sense. A giant war is going on, and Dalinar isn't there to participate.

The pacing is strange by intention. Instead of an opening action sequence as is common in Stormlight books, there's this disquieting sense of things breaking apart--Kaladin saying goodbye, Shallan and Adolin splitting, Dalinar and Navani being torn away from their kingdom. Instead of fast, slow, fast (as is the general pacing of a stormlight book) it is slow for a distressing amount of time, then jerky--jumping between viewpoints faster than Stormlight books generally do, with far more leaning on a variety of viewpoint characters than previous books have had.

As it goes, there's the uncomfortable sense that none of this is going to get fixed. That it's going to stay this way, despite this being a climactic book. The sense of stress to the book shouldn't simply be "Kaladin is away" it should be all of these things, together, leading to the uncomfortable conclusion that you're not seeing a series wrap up...but a series unravel.

Now, I don't say this to detract from anyone's criticisms of the book--just as explanation for what I was doing. The goal is a symphony going further and further out of tune until you realize, "Wait. This isn't going to correct. It's going to stay that way."

I did push the language too far modern. I also recognize that several of the revelations (like Gav as the champion) are disliked by the community here in general. They were disliked by the beta readers. Issue for me is that, having watched other big fantasy series play out, my gut says these revelations will work for readers who haven't spent years theorizing on them. (A reader that will never exist again, as nobody will ever need to wait fifteen years for this book again.) We're in a little bit of uncharted territory, since the general inclination from my peers has been to change revelations like this once they're figured out by the community. My gut has been to stick to my guns, and trust that in the long run, the well-foreshadowed answer is the correct one. It's still uncomfortable and wrong; it's not playing by stormlight rules. It's supposed to do that. Because the battle isn't about Gav. (Hint, the actual battle and conclusion to it is not about what happens with Gav, but it's about what Dalinar and Taravangian each do after.)

Y'all would have almost certainly guessed the ending of Hero of Ages years before the book came out if I were writing it now, and would have likely made the choices at that ending controversial because they had been guessed for years, and seemed pedestrian by the time the book launched.

Regardless, I'm confident the choice of champion is the right choice. Still undecided on Jasnah. I took three stabs at that sequence with beta reader feedback, as it was very controversial there too, and still don't know if people are just unwilling to let Jasnah lose, or if there was a better way to write the sequence. Probably a mix of both. Should probably have pushed harder that Jasnah is off-kilter because some of the things Taravangian is doing echo the terror she felt as a child being unable to trust her own conclusions and mind during a certain episode in her past we'll delve further into later.

Anyway, that's my take on it. Again, your mileage my vary, and your experience with the book is valid--it's art, and the author's intent is far less important than your takeaway experiencing it. 

Smellyjelly12

Have you ever considered making Sadeas Odium and/or do you think he would have made a good Odium?

Brandon Sanderson

It wasn't something I considered in depth. He would have made a fine Odium, but a little similar to Rayse--which meant there wouldn't have been much of a reason to make the swap.

I saw him, and Amaram, as "stepping stone" villains. The series started focused on the more practical: this specific war. It needed antagonists who were part of that war, and understandable as human beings to resist. As the push from Oathbringer on was going to be toward Odium, I wanted them to fade away before the larger threat by that point, and the real threat of Odium to be someone who could match the heroes in terms of understanding the longer game of the fall and rise of not kings, but kingdoms.

[removed]

As someone who liked the Jasnah debate, I think the thing most people who dislike it dislike about it is that it feels like Jasnah failed too easily, not that she failed at all. They think that she should’ve realized that she’s not this perfect, emotionless person and does actually do things she thinks are best for her family way before the debate ever happened. It kind of feels like she had that realization already at the end of Oathbringer, when she spares Renarin. That, plus a lot of people feel like Fen was out of character for that sequence (I can’t do the argument justice because it’s not one I personally espouse)

Brandon Sanderson

I am aware of these arguments, as they were there in the beta reads. I did take several stabs at Jasnah; I didn't change Fen. She's not out of character in my opinion; she's a queen, presented with a terrible decision, and our familiarity with her (and our fondness for the Kholin family) has led us to ignore the signs that she would take this deal, which have been in the books from the start.

I do also think people aren't realizing that Jasnah didn't learn her lesson at the end of Oathbringer, not entirely. She's been sitting on a fence ever since that moment, refusing to completely jump into a new line of reasoning and philosophy, because (like all people) she has momentum, and even for someone very self-reflective, change is difficult. However, I have deliberately not given myself the time to delve into this too much in the books, as I need to save her for the back five.

Again, no dismissal of people's valid complaints about the book--just my take on it. This is dangerous to do, as the reception of the book is not mine to decide, but the fans. (That said, I don't want to imply the reception to the book was bad--as it isn't. It's among my better reviewed books, but it's certainly generated a lot of conversation on the subreddit. It might have the biggest gulf between "general fan reaction" and "subreddit reaction" of any book of mine.)

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I am curious about why you feel Fen’s decision here was foreshadowed earlier in the series. Even to me, who didn’t mind the debate, it kind of felt out of left field

Brandon Sanderson

Key things to watch for are the discussions of her as a deal maker, her distrust of the Alethi and dissatisfaction with Dalinar making decisions for her, and her loyalty to her kingdom.

I really do think her decision is the right one, in her situation. Fen is a person who would take the average hit point in D&D at level up, instead of taking the roll to see if she can get higher. She knows a good deal when she sees one.

In this case, the choice seemed clear: Get a 7/10 deal from Taravangian now, or risk a 0 or a 10 depending on what Dalinar did. She'd always been upset that the Kholin's moved without her, and felt like it was happening again. She liked them, but the needs of her people dictated taking the seven (an above average deal) instead of holding out for a man who had vanished, and might not even show up to the contest--and if he did, might happen to forget the needs of her people, as he made a very real and manifest mistake in the negotiations with Odium already. (Leading to the battles they were now fighting.)

I think if you presented the situation to someone external, who didn't have the attachment to Dalinar we have by being in his head, the choice is pretty clear. For the same reason people at home tend to scream at the people making bad expect value choices on game shows, risking a very good deal because they see stars and dollar signs.

Fen is a pragmatist. This is the pragmatic decision.

SodiumButSmall

My personal issue with it is that all the arguments I saw were very common and easy to refute arguments against utilitarianism, it seemed very wrong that she wouldn't have encountered them before and known how to handle them.

Brandon Sanderson

This is a perfectly valid complaint. If I were to rebut, it's to say this: They are common, but I don't think they're easy to refute. Rather, they are too easy to refute, until they aren't.

Let's look at myself with religion. I believe because of certain feelings and experiences I've had. The common refutation to this is, "Look, that's confirmation bias." And I recognize this, and look at it, and weigh it, and just have to say, "yeah, I understand that--but I just don't think it IS confirmation bias."

Likewise, Jasnah has looked at all of these arguments, and has had to say--at the end of the day--okay, those are logical complaints about it, but I still think this is the way to go. Because there IS no right answer to these kinds of questions, and you have to pick one and go with it.

But that CAN come crashing down around you, where suddenly you see everything in a new light--and the objections suddenly make sense. It happens when someone has a crisis of faith, and similarly with a crisis of philosophical underpinnings. Sure, Jasnah could have made the knee-jerk, canned responses, but in that moment she realized Taravangian was RIGHT. Suddenly, the arguments don't work.

I hold that Fen's decision was the correct decision, and Jasnah (who is the closest character to me in the Stormlight books) absolutely knew it. Fen should have taken that deal, and arguing against it simply was wrong, because Jasnah knew she'd have taken the deal. Anyone should have, in Fen's position.

That's where, I think, I disagree with the interpretations of the scene. I think Fen should have taken the deal; Jasnah thought Fen should have taken the deal. Because of this, Jasnah couldn't rely on her previous philosophical foundations.

The fact that I didn't entirely get this across in the text to you, however, is not your fault, but mine.

Cspott

I struggled with the Dalinar decision. I think he ultimately found the second best path (that I wasn’t expecting- I liked it) but I still think the best path was killing Gavinor. We know that Dalinar (despite his growth) can make hard decisions and the decision to kill Gavinor felt like a very easy one in the wider scheme of things. Huge amounts of personal guilt for sure but also the greater good argument was very strong.

Why didn’t he ever really seem to consider it?

Brandon Sanderson

I would argue he DID consider it, for a long time. You can see, if you want, the conversation with Nohadon him manifesting a way to argue against himself. He very seriously did consider it, and I think you have a very valid argument: killing Gav makes a ton of sense. For the same reason as dropping the bomb on Japan made sense.

But was it the decision that Dalinar would make? The argument against Journey before Destination is that it is short-sighted, that it fails to plan for the eventual destination that WILL come.

Dalinar manifests this in his decision, and you have a very real argument against the philosophy of the Knights Radiant as he sees it here.

FluxFleetpaw

The only thing I'm still wondering about is Dalinar's ending. It feels a bit having your cake and eating it too, with Dalinar having his sort of happy ending (maybe more content?) while Odium still has the Blackthorn. It was one of my most anticipated conclusions of the book whereas it feels a bit muddled now?

Brandon Sanderson

Valid point. We'll have to see if that addition (made late into the revision process) is worth the muddling or not. This was done on a hunch by me that it will help me with some important things later on, but we'll see if it earns its keep or not.